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11. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    To address Deuce's specific question about money.... "How can a FREE bar league award CASH prizes NIGHTLY?"

    The question has two components
    a) How can they afford to give away money, and
    b) How is it legal to give away money.

    The bar league collects money based on attendance fees from the bars and sponsorships. This is the money they use to pay salaries and prizes.

    Why is it legal to give away money?
    The standard test for legality is to look for three elements, Consideration, Chance, and Reward. All three must be present to constitute gambling. Valuable Consideration is your buy-in or entry fee. Chance is generally considered to be present in poker. Reward is the money that is given away nightly.

    So it is legal to have Reward if Consideration is not present.

    I suspect the PPA uses the skill vs. chance argument as a wedge to break the concept of illegal gambling where the courts will allow it. It does not apply in mos cases, but occasionally it works.

    Anything will work as long as you can remove one of the three legs of gambling. For instance you can collect a $100 fee to play from each person as long as you do not give away prizes of any sort.

    Posted 2 years ago #

12. Vin DiNunno
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    So Jim are you a lawyer? I used to know a guy who we used to call himself Big Jim Slade, just trying to figure out where is it from Georgia Tech, Psi U, or Brockton? If so you can figure out who I am. I don't understand the difference between paying for a buffet and winning prizes or paying my membership fee and giving them a signed copy of a book and a couple coupons and winning prizes. The fact that the buffet costs $10 and the Membership costs $100, you are still getting something for that money and not paying to buy into individual poker games. With the buffet you can only play in 1 poker game with my membership you can play in 20 poker games and win higher prizes.

    Posted 2 years ago #

13. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    Welpers, Vinnyd19, with a name like mine, I'm more likely a cartoon character than a lawyer. But thanks for asking about my vocation.

    I assume this is a peer support group and that I can generate pro se answers with the guidance of counsel. But if you really expect me top believe you know me, then asking if I am an attorney is a bit of a tell.

    Maybe your buffet/membership question should be a new thread. Your question seems to fall under Consideration rather than Reward.

    Posted 2 years ago #

14. Mayor
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    It does vary wildly from state to state. World Tavern Poker (disclosure - a client, but also the largest, and yay WTP spokesperson Greg Raymer in event #2!) league venues in Michigan were forced to stop giving away any prizes, including trophies or shirts or even certificates, because of the "poker in only licensed establishments" regime of the lottery laws there.

    In PA (my state, so only one I can reference with any level of knowledge, but maybe it will help), where it's liquor laws say you have to go to a distributor if you want more than a six-pack but a state store if you want liquor, and grocery stores can't sell anything, the laws over this in bars are just as vague.

    WTP does not sponsor the events, the bars sponsor the "league events", per the law - the events must be self sponsored.

    --->>
    BARS cannot award >>_UP_TO_$500_<< in any single event in PA
    <<---

    ($5000 aggregate per week in CASH and prizes for all events, including pool, darts, beer pong, poker, etc.) The WTP does not, and can not pay the money - the bar does.

    OT, but even Ladies Nights are illegal in PA.

    The bars pay WTP for marketing support and de facto "league sanctioning". Since the bars are paying for the events, the events are bar-sponsored.

    Again, that's how it works in PA.. mileage will vary, and that's my view of the lay of the land - not a lawyer.
    PA LCB FAQ
    http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/plcb/cwp/view.asp?a=1334&q=558358

    Posted 2 years ago #

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