Poker Players Alliance Forums » Poker Players Alliance

Question to PokerStars' regulators

(16 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by thejerseydevil
  • Latest reply from Gary Reed

  1. I believe no one can say if their games are rigged or not. Random outcomes are generated electronically and it would be very difficult for anyone to say how legitimate their games are. Full regulation would require not only outside software testing, but outside server management and software deployment.

    Why? Because even if their software is certified by an independent 3rd party, someone has to make sure that the ONLY the certified software is used to run the games at the site. For instance, a self managed, fraudulent company may have their software certified, but only run the certified software on 10% of it servers. The other servers could have a modified version of the software that promotes site favorable outcomes at a higher percentage than a statistically correct game.

    Just thinking outside the box here.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    Why yes, Mr. TheJerseyDevil, The first paragraph passes for humor in my part of the world. You bring me more by suggesting you spoke with someone at im.gov, as dot gov is a US domain, not a Mann domain. The humor in it is that you seem totally incapable of communicating that there is any validity in your attempt to pursue the PPA's glorious mission of regulation.

    For if the PPA is about anything, it is about regulation, and it's desire to impose regulation onto online poker businesses.

    You pose a reasonable argument, that PokerStars should verify credit card addresses, and get a copy of a passport. There is anecdotal evidence that they do in fact do this, and PokerStars has been independently certified as meeting appropriate standards for age verification. But these are facts, and admittedly I am only using the facts to make your argument look bad. It's amazing how someone such as myself will misuse facts in this fashion.

    I'm not much of a statist. I'm more of a laissez-faire kind of guy. If because of this you feel my "values are even more screwed up than my sense of humor" then I will wear the label you give me proudly. I find even more humor in that with you being a statist on this point, you seem to be proudly declaring yourself to have the values of the original Nazi party, as opposed to say the Libertarians.

    Please feel free to say next that people such as myself should be eliminated from the political scene and have no true place in society. After all, the only true way to govern properly is to impose proper moral behavior by codification in law. :)

    As for your statement

    I think it is an absurd arguement to claim that as neither the Isle of Man nor Pokerstars can achieve absolute 100% certainty in efforts to verify identity that they should be permitted to not make any effort at all.

    I do not think this alleged Isle of Man organization, PokerStars, or myself are making this argument. I do not think anyone other than you is making this argument.

    I'd comment on what Rick Robards has to say, but I spend too much time playing online poker to get to it, and since I play at a lot of sites, none of which are Full Tilt or PokerStars, I can't really comment on the monopoly that Full Tilt and PokerStars have on the market.

    While Mr. Majorana is still as effective as ever at spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD), can we really trust him to entertain us with more?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. thejerseydevil
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    The contact information for the Isle of Man is indisputable Big Jim -- I simply transposed the "im" and "gov" in that post. First you agree with everything the guy says, then you claim it was something I made up. Interesting...

    Your claim that Pokerstars has been "independently certified as meeting appropriate standards" is just plain hilarious (finally, a successful attempt at humor from you)...just who exactly would make such a certification?? Again, these "standards" appear to be composed entirely of checking a box certifying the person is 18.

    Pokerstars is preying on children. The Isle of Man is letting them do it because they're more concerned with maximizing profitability. I made the original post because it is indeed "chilling" to hear a supposed government entity come right out and acknowledge such messed up priorities.

    Sadly, I guess like most other things in the world it falls on the US to establish decency.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    The contact information for the Isle of Man *is* disputable. I disputed it. You agreed you [TheJerseyDevil] had it wrong. You've corrected your statement. Yes, it was obvious you transposed the two parts of the domain name. Other things you say are obvious too.

    I'm offering you a chance to correct other errors in what you have to say.

    In my part of the world, where we have such wonderful humor, I suppose that regulation of gaming is as likely done by the local Alcoholic Beverage Control entity as anyone else. I was just curious who at the Isle of Man, if not the Lord of Mann, handles such things. I was wondering if you are even talking with the correct group, and I was wondering if you are talking with anyone greater than the equivalent of the Secretary of State's corporate licensing department.

    I'm not saying you are speaking with the wrong people, I'm just saying that you have yet to impress me with your ability to get your facts correct.

    While I suppose it is fair to cast my comment of PokerStars age verification as a "claim I make" it really falls under the "I don't know, but I've been told" category.

    PokerStars has GamCare certification for among other things "Age Verification Systems."
    http://www.pokerstars.com/gamcare/certificate/
    Now I don't say this because it has anything to do with your issue, whatever that actually is, but simply because I like to use facts to murk up the argument. Also in the ten minutes or so of research I did as soon as I read your original posting, I found, using Google, ample anecdotal evidence that adult players feel that getting past the age verification systems of PokerStars is irritating.

    I disagree with several of the statements you make. You have twice stated that PokerStars is predatory. I just don't see it. While it is true I don't watch a lot of children's TV, I seriously doubt that PokerStars runs ads in those time slots. I am curious as to what evidence you have that PokerStars is predatory?

    (Hint this gives you a chance to change the subject so you don't have to confront the idea that maybe they do have age verification to the level you are requesting.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. SageLee
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    First of all, Jim, although you did fall a little flat at first, your further posts and repeated use of dirty, dirty facts is pretty damn funny.

    Jersey Devil: I play at Pokerstars. Whenever you deposit money they require your SSN (US) and a valid phone number. They called me the first time I made a deposit to confirm my identity (such as they could.) A couple years later, when I tried to make a deposit at around 2am, they called again to ensure I was still who I said I was. (There was no trouble or anything out of the ordinary for them to call the second time, so I assume it is something they do at random. I would be pretty annoyed if I had to do it every time I played, though.)

    Due to the impossibility of verifying someone's identity through the anonymous medium of the internet (yes - it is IMPOSSIBLE using reasonable means), there really isn't much more they could do. The fact that they actually made the calls to speak to me personally (especially the second one, which they didn't have to do at all) shows that they are at least making an effort. I mean, really, what would have them do - fly to the home of every customer to verify with their own eyes who is playing?

    Maybe someone will come up with a technical solution that is effective without being intrusive, but for now what you envision is simply not feasible. Do you have a fingerprint scanner in your home? A webcam? Should Pokerstars offer them to you free of charge, or force you to stay in view of the camera at all times? I'm sure I speak for plenty of folks when I say: Fuck that.

    Full Tilt, by the way, offers (for a small fee) a little keychain code generator that randomly assigns a code every thirty minutes or so that must be entered to play on the associated account. So that, at least, prevents kids from playing off a responsible parent's account. (Which is probably a far more common problem than kids signing up for their own accounts.)

    I mean, yeah - there are all sorts of things that kids will do that they're not supposed to, but there is a valid argument in saying that parents bear the burden of responsibility when their kid's behavior is the issue.

    Sure, kids might be able to find a way to gamble, just like they would in real life (I read that Phil Ivey used to use a fake I.D. to enter real casinos when he was a teenager.) However, if some kid keeps dumping all his money because he's addicted to online poker (or anything else, for that matter), well, then, his parents should probably have noticed this continued behavior. If it happens, it happens - and it will - but if it KEEPS happening, the individual parental figures are to blame.

    Really, I don't see what's so "chilling" about the response you got from [whatever governing body it may have been.] All they basically said was "we don't want to create a hassle and piss off our customers to try and do something that we can't really accomplish anyway." It is true that any time a business says "keep our customers happy" they really mean "keep them shopping here." But the issue of sending players to other, unlicensed (read: unsupervised and unknown) online rooms that are under the radar is also a valid point. That WOULD be bad for the players. I trust Pokerstars to treat me fairly and to cater to my desires - and I want them to keep me happy, even though I know it's not because of my pretty face. I actually thought you were given a pretty professional, logical response, which I think is why Jim commented on your "interesting interpretation."

    Also, legalizing/regulating the industry in the US is obviously their main concern right now, and certainly one that needs to be handled before attempting more specific forms of regulation. Meanwhile, kids that are playing online poker elsewhere in the world can be governed by their own national policies - that's really not our concern.

    In closing, I offer this final word:

    Testicles.

    That is all.

    SageLee

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    Our esteemed colleague, TheJerseyDevil, has in his own way brought to light an interesting issue that is very much of relevance to members of the PPA. Perhaps several points.

    The main question, while not clearly expressed, lies around the topic of children playing online poker. Off shoots from this involve the question of whether or not PokerStars has the morally correct "controls" in place.

    In my mind, the topic decomposes into two questions. Should children be playing online, and should government controls be put in place to ensure a yes or no answer to the first question.

    This effects the PPA as a topic because if the PPA is about anything, the PPA is about regulation. The PPA is the main lobby for online poker regulation in the US.

    Do the current PPA supported bills allow for the "right" regulation, as relates to minors? Is this regulation done through codification or is it done through promulgation of rules?

    But what is the "right" regulation? Does the moral code of TheJerseyDevil mesh well with mine? If someone comes whining to me that a 14 year old girl took all his money at the poker table, I'm prone to not be sympathetic to his losses, nor do I have a desire to have the better poker player expelled from the site.

    Though the mists of time make it hard for me to remember what it might have been like, I think that as a 12 year old boy if I wanted to take my money and play online poker with it, I don't think anyone should be keeping me from honing my math skills, my application of psychology, nor my social skills and ability to learn sportsmanship as a child.

    I certainly wish many of my poker playing friends had learned sportsmanship as a child. :)

    Perhaps online poker for minors could be banned in all school districts where The Catcher in the Rye has also been banned. Maybe we could rewrite the proposed legislation to guarantee that minors can play online poker. Or, can we commission a study to look into how minors who play poker have lost everything - their bicycles, their lemonade stands?

    What is the "right" thing to do?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Gary Reed
    State Director & Moderator
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    Big Jim brings up an interesting point. Does the PPA need to have a position on this issue or is it one better left for the regulators when poker sites are brought to the States? It seems to me that we should support reasonable regulation for minors. We don't let underage children drive, drink, vote etc. There is an age where they should be allowed to play poker but what is that age? Since children are no longer considered children when they reach 18, perhaps that should be the age. If they are old enough to die for their country they should be old enough to play poker online or even in live games. Of course the same argument has been made for drinking alcohol. The more conservative among us might vote for 21. Whatever the age, we, the PPA, need to be ready with a position when the bill is finally passed and the regulations are being written. There should be nothing about Poker that we don't have a position on.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Is there any merit in these perspectives? Is it the case that well-educated women acquire a level of pride which exacerbates marital problems, or is it in fact the case that ill-educated women feel too powerless and dependent to stand up for themselves? Women who lack education, skills, or the capacity for self sufficiency are incapable of supporting themselves. They are voiceless. They have no choice but to remain patient, accept their arrangements, and even learn to live with domestic violence and abuse. Given their high level of dependency, to do otherwise is tantamount to suicide.

    Posted 5 months ago #

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