Poker Players Alliance Forums » Poker Players Alliance

The Joe Cada Effect

(5 posts)
  • Started 5 months ago by Gary Reed
  • Latest reply from aldvelothi

  1. Gary Reed
    State Director & Moderator
    Visit User Profile

    “The Cada Effect”

    Poker players are familiar with the Chris Moneymaker effect. It resulted in the poker boom that we all participate in and feel the effect of. Depending on your age, profession, skill or lack of same it was either the best or the worst thing to ever happen to poker.

    Now comes the Joe Cada effect. I was introduced to it this weekend at a tournament that I play monthly. That tournament usually has between 40 to 60 players with skill levels from beginner to professional. That makes it a dangerous tournament especially when you are against a player you don’t know and who doesn’t know you. I spend the first hour of this tournament assessing the sill level of the other players at my table and usually get moved to another table about the time I feel comfortable with my reads.

    I encountered the Joe Cada effect when, in the big blind, I looked down at pocket aces. There were three limpers ahead of me and the cut off had raised three times the big blind. The worthy in the cutoff was a kid. I say that with all respect and affection, I love kids. I have five of my own. This guy is younger than any of mine and my read of him was, reckless, loose, risk taker. In short, he’s an internet/cash game beginner with no idea of odds, percentages or skill. I know, I can already hear the “sour grapes” comments.

    Back to the hand. I believe in the old adage “win a small pot or lose a big one” with aces. I have, believe it or not, thrown aces away when my pre-flop raise was insufficient to drive all but one player out of the hand and the flop held flush or straight cards and I had a big bet into me. This time I pushed all in and everyone folded up to the cut off. He thought about it, oh, maybe two seconds. “Call” he announced.

    Pocket threes. To make matters worse, one other player informed me that he had folded 5-3 off. Flop has no straight or flush possibilities and more to the point, no three. One out. Huge dog. 97%. You do the math. Of course he hit the case 3 on the turn. No ace on the river and I’m going home.

    The young man informs the table “I saw Joe Cada do it to Jeff Shulman and I figured if Joe and do it, I can.” That, my friends, is the Joe Cada effect.

    The problem with Joe Cada as the WSOP Main Event Champion is that he is too young to fully realize just how lucky he got. He undermines the “Skill vs Luck” argument and negates any facts or figures those of us who believe that poker is more about skill than luck, can throw at the subject. Yes, any single hand or even series of hands can and often does turn on the luck (or lack of same) of an individual player. Had Phil Ivey or even Jeff Shulman won, our argument would have gained weight. As it is, we have a steeper hill to climb.

    Posted 5 months ago #
  2. jl12345
    Member
    Visit User Profile

    Joe Cada made aggressive plays in good spots and happened to get the best of a few flops. If that happens to make the skill level of a few people worse, great!

    Posted 5 months ago #
  3. aldvelothi
    Member
    Visit User Profile

    No offense meant here- but you're bad at poker. The young player who got it in against you from the CO is probably bad as well- mainly because he's getting it in with 33 vs an older probably tighter player who just uncharacteristically shoved all in. You pretty much never have anything but AA, KK, or MAYBE AK there.

    Joe Cada was a 10/20 HUNL player before winning the WSOP. In other words he was making more than you make in a year (probably- and this isn't an insult.. 10/20 regs rarely make less than 100k) playing poker. He's VERY aggressive. He's also very solid. He obviously also ran very very well at the WSOP.

    Why are you terrible? Because you've occasionally folded AA on a scary flop where you're opponent could very easily have top pair top kicker type hands and you don't know that from the flop a 1 outer has 4% not 3% equity. Also you randomly shove AA early in a tournament (with I presume 50+BB's) over a 3 BB raise? Next time play your hand correctly and make it something that people might call, like 12-15 bb's. Aces frequently STACK people- you win huge hands with AA because people have a very hard time placing you on literally the top .05% of possible starting hands. You lost an 80/20 from pre flop to river. Every good player on earth has had this happen hundreds of times. It sucks. Get over it.

    PS: Internet players are here to stay- and we're going to be coming to a game near you soon. My apologies that we don't understand the game.

    Posted 5 months ago #
  4. TheEngineer
    State Director & Forum Admin
    Visit User Profile

    Aldvelothi,

    You can't be serious. You really think AA can never be folded to an all-in bet, regardless of read on the opponent, pot size, stack/blind ratio, and other factors?

    At least you got the main point -- shoving 33 after an all-in from Gary (lol at your "read" -- older = probably tighter) was horrible. LOL at your comment on 97% vs. 96% equity (95.666%, if that suits you better), as if 1% even matters in the decision making of this hand.

    That being said, I look forward to the Joe Cada effect if it causes opponents to make lots of -EV calls. :-)

    Posted 5 months ago #
  5. aldvelothi
    Member
    Visit User Profile

    My read is based on more than the OP being "old". He's also just gotten done describing a tired cliche about "lose a big pot, win a small pot" with AA. The reason why this is true for players like him is that they are too tight. As a result villains know without a doubt that their aggressive plays represent a super strong range.

    Also- I stated that the villain made a terrible play by calling an all in from a tight player with 33. That's just bad. No sugar coating it- it's terrible. There are terrible players online too, without them I would lose money at poker.

    AA is a hand that requires a very good reason to fold. The OP stated that "I have, believe it or not, thrown aces away when my pre-flop raise was insufficient to drive all but one player out of the hand and the flop held flush or straight cards and I had a big bet into me.". Believe it or not your villains likely holdings on a K9Tsss board include, AsKx, AxKs, AxKx, AsJx, AsTx, As9x, KQ (same varieties as AK), etc... My point being that AA is still well ahead of a drawy board the vast majority of the time. In fact AA is still ahead of the vast majority of an opponents jamming range. Unless of course that villain never ever plays draws, tptk, or air aggressively. That last part is a pretty strong read.

    There are obviously lots of spots where folding AA is appropriate. But the one the OP described certainly isn't one of them. Also the OP's shove is lolbad because it plays his very very strong hand face up and basically narrows the villains (obv correct- the villain in this spot is a terrible player young or otherwise) correct calling range to QQ, KK, AK, AA. And QQ is a maybe. Getting your opponent to fold 90+% of the time when you have AA preflop is bad. Also- due to stack/blind ratios the spots where folding AA is good almost never occur in tournaments. They seriously aren't structured that way.

    I guess what I really resent is the OP's obvious distaste for 'online players' and also his belief that Joe Cada is obviously bad because he ran good on televised poker- which is obviously every exciting hand taken out of context. The OP like a lot of random players who haven't played 1/100 of the hands that Joe Cada has played seem to feel that they are qualified to judge his plays, his thinking, and his results.

    I wouldn't nitpick about the equity difference of 1% if the OP wasn't posing as some sort of poker expert out to tell the world the 'one true way to play poker'.

    Also- thanks for carrying our fight to Washington. Perhaps if we manage to get the UIGEA overturned rake structures will begin to resemble sanity.

    Posted 5 months ago #

Reply

You must log in to post.