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State gambling laws and the internet

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  • Started 11 months ago by Skallagrim
  • Latest reply from HoldemEagle

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  1. Skallagrim
    State Director & Moderator
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    State gambling laws and the internet

    OK, now its time to delve into the really arcane subject matter. We have previously seen that if federal law covers online poker it almost certainly only does that by virtue of referencing "gambling that is illegal under state law." (Link: ) We have also previously seen how it is far from a closed question as to whether state gambling laws cover poker, primarily due to poker being a game of MOSTLY skill. (Link: ) So now the big question, assuming a state's gambling laws cover poker, do they also apply to poker played over the internet?

    Again, there is no definitive answer to that question as I write this. Courts have hardly even begun to tackle the issues here, and so far only a few state legislatures have addressed it either. So again what this article will do is break down the question into the various issues that are out there. I will also again only refer to specific states as an example, I still want to keep creating the running list of each individual state discussion in the PPA's "Ask Skallagrim" Fourm (Link: )

    So onto the actual issues.

    1) The Commerce Clause

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution states that :
    "Congress shall have Power....To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes; " Over the years this clause has been the subject of much debate. For our purposes however, we need only concentrate on one aspect - the fact that the power to regulate international and interstate commerce is reserved to the US Congress. So although written as an express grant of power to the federal government, the Commerce Clause also contains an “implicit restraint on state authority” to regulate interstate or international commerce. The Supreme Court has referred to this restraint as a “negative command, known as the dormant Commerce Clause.” According to the Court, the dormant Commerce Clause bars states from discriminating against interstate commerce and favoring in-state economic interests over out-of-state economic interests.

    Well, internet poker is clearly "interstate" and/or "Foreign" commerce. So the question is whether states have the right to regulate. ban, or otherwise interfere with internet poker AT ALL, or whether only Congress has that right. This issue is really ripe for a Law Review article, not a forum post. Lucky for us, such article have been written, One of the most recent and best (IMHO) is by Mark B. Dubnoff and can be found at GAMING LAW REVIEW AND ECONOMICS, Volume 12, Number 3, 2008. Ultimately Mr. Dubnoff concludes that if a state allows ANY form of gambling within its borders. it would violate the Commerce Clause to allow that state to ban or prevent internet providers from offering gambling within their borders.

    If thats right, only two states can have laws against internet poker without violating the Constitution; every state but Utah and Hawaii has some form of in-state gambling. And even in Utah and Hawaii, there are other issues.

    2) Was the state gambling law meant to apply to the internet?

    Here the answer depends, as always it seems, on a number of lesser questions:

    a) Does the state law mention the Internet?

    Well if it does, then, other than the commerce clause argument, it clearly applies to the internet. Probably all of you have by now seen the infamous list of 12-14 (interpretations vary) states that have gambling laws which "directly mention the internet." Only one, however, the state of Washington, has a law which clearly and specifically says PLAYING poker on the internet is a crime. Illinois has a clear law against playing poker for money, and a clear law against offering illegal gambling over the internet, but even there it is still open to question as to whether the law was meant to make criminal PLAYING poker on the internet. All the other states on the list either only make operating the game illegal, or they only make operating and playing at a site THEY DONT LICENSE illegal. Both NJ and NV are in that last category, surprise. This type of law, however, is the classic type of law that violates the commerce clause.

    b) If the state law does not specifically mention the internet, should it be applied to the internet anyway?

    To answer this question you need to really look at the specifics of the state law. Except for the laws that explicitly mention the internet, all state gambling laws were written long before the internet existed. Thus the first issue to consider is one of general policy: should laws written before an activity existed ever be applied to that activity? Consider that before the airplane became common, many states had laws limiting how fast a "motor driven vehicle" could go. Since an airplane had to go much fast than the law allowed, should that law be read to ban airplanes? Common sense would say no, as traveling in the air is fundamentally different from traveling on the ground. A similar argument exists regarding the distinction between B&M gambling/poker and internet gambling/poker.

    Secondly, one has to look at the INTENT of the statute. Many gambling statutes were written not to ban gambling, but to ban (or restrict) gambling businesses and places. South Caroline, Hawaii, and Massachusetts all have references in their laws to "illegal gambling places," SInce obviously one's den is not among those places it certainly seems that those laws, at least, should not apply to the internet. New York and Kentucky for example, only have laws against gambling businesses, not gamblers. Since there is no gambling business in the state, why should the law apply to businesses in other jurisdictions merely because a technology lets folks access those businesses without having to physically travel there?

    In the end, all of these remain pretty much open questions that the Courts will have to decide sooner or later. But for us, it does narrow how we proceed with the analysis: 1) does the state law mention the internet - if it does, does it violate the commerce clause 2) if it doesn't mention the internet, is it a place or business specific law, or does it just make "gambling" a general offense? 3) If the latter, does it violate the commerce clause, and/or does it distinguish public or private activities.

    A murky word, this. Someday, either through legislation or Court decisions, how much a state can control what its citizens do on the internet, and probably more importantly, how much a state can control what is offered on the internet to its citizens will have to be decided. Until then, all we can do is identify the arguments.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 11 months ago #
  2. TheEngineer
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    Excellent post, Skall. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  3. In your article about state poker laws in general, your reasoning revolves around the argument that playing poker in most states is legal because poker is a game that is predominantly skill based, and therefore doesn't fall under state anti-gambling laws. Yet here, your argument revolves around the commerce clause, claiming that if state laws allow in-state "gambling" enterprises, then internet gambling, and therefore internet poker, cannot be deemed unlawful.

    So for playing poker, you are claiming it is a skill game, not gambling. And for internet poker enterprises, you are claiming it falls under gambling laws. Can you get away with arguing it is a skill game for playing poker purposes, but a gambling game for internet poker purposes?

    Posted 11 months ago #
  4. HoldemEagle
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    TY TY Skallagrim, Great post.

    HoldemEagle

    ______________

    Abraham Lincoln said:

    "Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

    Posted 11 months ago #
  5. Skallagrim
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    PokerXanadu, my posts were made separately for the purpose (hopefully, but maybe not achieved) of providing a logical step by step analysis of the laws.

    What I tried to make it clear in both posts is that FIRST you have to see if poker is covered by the gambling law. In most states it is not, IMHO, because of the skill argument. And if poker is not covered by the state definition of "gambling" YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO ANY FURTHER, YOU HAVE WON, AND CAN STOP THERE.

    But if you live in a state where poker is covered by the definition of gambling, there are still remaining issues. There are the possible applications of statutory exceptions.

    But if all those arguments fail and poker is ruled definitely "gambling" under a state's laws, there are ALSO still issues to explore regarding whether that state's laws are applicable to the internet. And that is where the Commerce Clause comes in. The issues are not mutually exclusive.

    I hope that explains it. And you may also note that this pattern is the one I used in response to your question about Florida law, so that would be a specific example of the order in which I think the analysis should go.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 11 months ago #
  6. Yes, thanks. I see the logic now.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  7. HoldemEagle
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    Does anyone know what happened to the Lee Rousso case against Washington State?

    Posted 11 months ago #
  8. Xanadu,

    Also a point of this article seems to indicate that because of the Commerce Clause, it would be UnConstitutional to have laws making Internet play of poker illegal.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  9. HoldemEagle
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    "Does anyone know what happened to the Lee Rousso case against Washington State?"

    Nevermind, Found it on 2+2.

    Posted 10 months ago #

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