Poker Players Alliance Forums » Ask Skallagrim

Florida Law re:Online Poker

(16 posts)
  • Started 2 weeks ago by PokerXanadu
  • Latest reply from Skallagrim

  1. I never see Florida included on the lists of states that have laws that make online poker illegal. However, Florida law states:

    849.08 Gambling.--
    Whoever plays or engages in any game at cards, keno, roulette, faro or other game of chance, at any place, by any device whatever, for money or other thing of value, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    This seems to make playing online poker (and any internet gambling) illegal in Florida for any individual. Do you see any ambiguity in this law that would make the illegality of playing online poker questionable? Is there some other way to interpret this law?

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  2. thunderacura
    Member

    I see several flaws in the logic of this law. Online poker does not actually use cards. It uses computer generated graphics simulating the use of cards. I imagine this is how Harrah's Cherokee can get around the law and is able to use the PokerPro tables. Also, poker is not a card game of chance. It is a card game of skill. The card game of "War" is a game of chance. Any card game where the winner of the hand is not strictly determined by the "best hand" is not a game of chance. Therefore, poker can not be encapsulated in the Gambling portions of current Florida State law.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  3. thunderacura
    Member

    Notice the use of the word "other". This makes the law pertain only to games of chance. The law explicitly lists cards, but by including the word "other" makes the law only apply to card games that are games of chance. If the lawmakers had simply left out the word "other" the law would apply to all card games AND all games of chance be it with or without cards.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  4. I'd also guess that further casino bills must have at least some effect upon that statute as well. Like in Michigan, the casino bills specifically exclude themselves from being affected by a similar statute. But it does leave online play somewhat murky.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  5. thunderacura -

    I don't think you first argument would fly - just because one is using virtual cards on the computer rather than physical cards doesn't change the fact that you are using "any device" to play "cards" for money.

    Your second argument might be the key here. It would depend on how the wording is viewed under the law. Does the use of "other" thereby exclude anything but card games that would be a "game of chance" from being unlawful; or would "other game" be seen as separate from the individal named games, and thereby all card games still included in the unlawful classification?

    I'd like to hear from skallagrim.

    eblade - there aren't currently any casino bills that impact this part of the statutes. There are additional statutes that authorize pari-mutuel wagering and pokerrooms at state licensed facilities. But they leave no wiggle room for interpretation.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  6. thunderacura
    Member

    PokerXanadu -

    I, too, would like to hear from skallagrim on our discussions.

    To reply to your response. You have "other game" in your message. I believe that if the wording of the statue had been that ("other games") instead of "other games of chance" then all card games, as well as any other game imagineable, would be included in the unlawful classification b/c card games are in fact games. However, not all card games are "games of chance" as the actual wording reads, so I believe, b/c of the way the text is worded and English language grammar rules, card games that are not games of chance can not be included in this statue whether played online or live

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  7. I don't disagree with you, but the way that word structure is viewed by the law system is often different than the way we might normally view it under standard rules of English grammar. I'm pretty sure that the law would view the wording of the statute as being the same as this:

    Whoever plays or engages in any game at cards;
    whoever plays or engages in any game at keno;
    whoever plays or engages in any game at roulette;
    whoever plays or engages in any game at faro;
    or whoever plays or engages in any other game that is a game of chance...

    Let's hear from skallagrim.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  8. thunderacura
    Member

    PokerXanadu -

    Sadly, I believe you're right about the government interpreting words differently than standard English practice. Which is why we are in this situation to begin with. The government officials that are against poker interpret the wording of the law to suit their platform, even though it goes against English grammar rules and basic logic rules. The government officials and others that are pro-poker interpret the wording of the law as it is actually written.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  9. Ultimately, I suppose the interpretation of the wording is a matter for the Florida courts to decide - which isn't happening since no one in Florida is being arrested for playing online poker.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  10. thunderacura
    Member

    Is anyone being arrested for playing live poker in Florida? I believe that the statue as written applies the same rules, whatever they are, to both online and live play.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  11. If "Whoever plays or engages in any game at cards, keno, roulette, faro or other game of chance, at any place," then there can't be a law allowing the casinos and card rooms, without it specifically at least saying that that particular law does not apply in these specified locations.

    Michigan seems to specifically point out that it is illegal to WIN money at cards. And that anyone who loses money at cards can sue the person that they lost it to to get it back. Therefore, obv, I'm going to sue the next guy that sucks out on me at the casino. :)

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  12. Right. There is further law that authorizes wagering and cardrooms at the pari-mutuel facilities, as an exception to this part of the law. There is not a Florida law that authorizes the casinos. We only have Indian tribal casinos in Florida, which operate under Federal gaming law. They are not subject to the laws of the state, except as specified in any negotiated compact.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  13. Ah, I was under the misinformed impression that there were state legal casinos. We do have charitable games here in MI, but the laws involving that don't actually refer to the other legislation, so it's just one big convoluted mess, really. My lawyer says he's absolutely not getting involved with it, because the range of laws that affect these things are just too messed up, since they go back 100+ years and there's dozens of different things one could find that contradict each other.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  14. Still no answer from Skallagrim (strange for an "Ask Skallagrim" forum). I'll take this over to 2+2 forums. Maybe he'll chime in over there, as he is active on all the legislation threads there.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  15. Big Jim Slade v2.0
    Moderator

    I don't have any real knowledge of Florida law, but just to interject a few points. Most prohibition statutes, such as Florida's 849.08, have a number of carve outs.

    849.085 Penny ante games. Florida codifies certain forms of poker as legal. In 849.085,

    "it is not a crime for a person to participate in ... a game or series of games of poker... in which the winnings of any player in a single round, hand, or game do not exceed $10 in value... The game must be conducted in... residential premises."

    I've played a lot of online poker where the pot did not exceed $10. I've played in a residence, and in my pajamas.

    849.086 Cardrooms authorized.

    "Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it is not a crime for a person to participate in an authorized game at a licensed cardroom."

    The language of laws tends to often be convoluted, but I can tell you that online poker rooms tend to be licensed. They are legal in the jurisdictions they physically exist in and most are licensed by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

    An argument can be put forth that the "licensed" online card rooms may be licensed, but not by "Florida". Without going into details you can also use this theory to say that Georgia drivers are not "licensed" by "Florida" to drive on roads, so Georgia licensed drivers should not be legal on Florida roads.

    I can't tell you for sure that online poker is Florida is legal, illegal, or something else. There tends to be a lot of gray area with online law - gambling law or not, just online law in general has a lot of gray area.

    I can tell you that in my opinion if Florida had a reciprocal agreement with Kahnawake then there would be no question that online poker is legal in Florida.

    Posted 1 week ago #
  16. Skallagrim
    Moderator

    OK, I am sorry about the time it took for me to reply in this thread. If you look above you will see that I have added 2 new stickies to this forum: "State gambling laws and Poker," and "State gambling laws and the internet." Those 2 posts provide the general framework for looking at State gambling laws and trying to figure out what they mean with respect to Poker and then online poker.

    The reason I took so long to respond here is that I wanted to get those two posts finished first.

    So anyway, Florida....

    First question is always "does the law apply to poker?"

    Start with the definition of gambling:

    "849.08 Gambling. Whoever plays or engages in any game at cards, keno, roulette, faro or other game of chance, at any place, by any device whatever, for money or other thing of value, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree...."

    On its face, I would say this statute does NOT apply to poker because poker is not a "game of chance." The phrase "or other game of chance" modifies the first group of things, at least that is the normal way statutory interpretation is done.

    There is a problem here though, and that is the other statutes on the books. First is the "penny ante" games section. That section allows for playing "poker, pinochle, bridge, rummy, canasta, hearts, dominoes, or mah-jongg" at low limits. Since all of these games have at one point or another been considered "games of mostly skill" this provision of law is unnecessary unless these games were also considered by the legislature to be "games of chance" or otherwise covered by the gambling laws. One could argue, however, that the legislature was just being extra protective here, in other words making sure low level games were protected either as games of skill OR as low level games. But then one also has to look at the legislation allowing for poker card rooms and add that to the mix. My best guess is that a Court would look at all these statutes together and conclude the Florida legislature wanted the laws to cover poker whether or not it is a game of skill or chance. I would hope to be wrong, but thats my guess.

    So if the Florida gambling law does cover poker, does it cover ONLINE poker?

    Point one here is whether the internet is mentioned anywhere in the gambling statutes. And the answer to that is NO.

    Point two is that Florida law, at least when applied to the operators of the games, is very place specific: one must operate a "gambling house" (or a lottery or a sportsbook) to be guilty of a gambling felony. And even the misdemeanor player provision refers to "any place." I dont believe the distinction between physical cards and virtual cards will make much difference, its still the same "card game" that is at issue, and the words "by any device" pretty much shut that down.

    And given that FL has card rooms - the Commerce Clause challenge is a strong one here.

    Putting all these factors together and I think the stronger argument is that the FL legislature has never intended for its gambling laws to apply to the internet and thus a court should rule they do not.

    Of course they could pass an internet specific law if they want too.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 1 week ago #

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