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What are the REAL benefits of US Legislation?

(9 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by matt asay
  • Latest reply from TheEngineer

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  1. matt asay
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    For one, how will it be "regulated"?

    The sites already have weekly and monthly deposit limits. Is that not regulation.

    Will that stop someone from mortgaging there house and going to the local casino and blowing it on roulette nope. Do casinos have a daily cap based on my income that I am allowed to spend. NO!!! So why should online poker be any different.

    Taxation is not regulation...

    IRS can not tax a business not operated in the US. But just because the home office is outside the US the ecommerce side means they are operating a business on US soil...virtual soil...in that case the owners pay tax on profits on US customers only.

    How can the gov expect a site with thousands of players keep track of just the rake earned from US players. Do-able but at what cost to the site.

    Will players be issued a tax ID and have to enter it along with our log in?

    Stock holders for example only pay tax on dividends earned and thats only if they actually touch the cash. Poker winnings on a site are just numbers until actually transfered to a bank or received as a check. There are already laws in regards to the amounts allowed before a bank has to report the transaction.

    The topics brought up by legislators are already in place IMO. Regulation check. The sites do there best and spend millions on software updates and security to protect the players the best they can. Limits check. Most sites already have deposit and withdrawal limits in place. Taxes-check, the gov leaves income taxes and deductions up to ME every year so reporting income from poker is guess what up to me. If I CHOOSE not to pay and get audited well we all know what can and will happen.

    How many of you reported that $20 bill you found at the mall...

    How many of you report each and every item you sell on ebay as income...

    The gov already requires each and every one of us to file a tax return each and every year. CHECK CHECK.

    So whats the problem...

    How will this so called "regulation" make a poker site better or safer or NOT RIGGED...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Daniel Doble
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    I debated if I even should bother responding to this. Are you even serious? THE main benefit for the large majority of us that support the PPA (I doubt mmateo does; he just like to get on here and stir things up) is legalization, i.e. repeal of the UIGEA and the hassles it has caused those of us that enjoy online poker (getting kicked out of certain sites; for those of us that make money, long delays getting money out; etc.). Since this post seems to only address the Internet, I will stick to that, but of course, we also support legalization of live games. I suspect many of us (at least Libertarian-minded types like myself) would gladly accept legalization without regulation and let the free market dynamics drive the shady operators out of business, as players would gravitate towards those sites they feel are dealing a fair game. This would certainly be better than the status quo, and this is THE main goal most of us share. However, it is highly unlikely that legalization, which is hard enough to achieve as it is, would come without some form of regulation or taxation. Thus, to a certain extent, those are compromises we are willing to accept to receive the more important goal of repeal of the UIGEA and clear recognition of the legality of poker.

    Having said all that, though, it's not that difficult to see that regulation certainly, if done correctly, can be greatly beneficial. While I agree with you that there are sites that are already doing a good job without US regulation, the perception among politicians and non-poker-players is different, and regulation could change that. Furthermore, those good sites are usually, if not always, regulated in the jurisdictions where they operate. Vegas and other casinos are regulated in a similar way, and it helps create a perception among players that they will be dealt a fair game. And just like there are sites that are doing a good job, other sites have not. There are several recent examples of cheating where the sites did not do a good job of fixing the situation even after it was discovered, where if the sites had been operating and regulated in the US, players would have had much greater recourse in recuperating that money which they lost to the cheaters instead of having to hope for the best in waiting for the sites to do what's right.

    I also don't think the taxation is that difficult with modern technology. For one, in terms of the rake they earn, it doesn't matter where the players are. If they are a US company (the idea we are promoting is that legalization would bring companies here), they would be taxed on all their profits. Even if they had to do something more complicated, if their software people are smart enough to program their sites, they can easily figure out how to calculate who gets which taxes. While I would have no problem with leaving it up to each individual to report their own taxes; in fact, this would be ideal; again, we would accept having the sites report our earnings for the bigger goal. This would be no different than many other companies who are required to report income. My employer has to report my income. Banks have to report my interest earnings. Casinos have requirements to report winnings.

    I could keep going as I did not address everything you said, but this is long enough. The truth is I agree with many of your statements in principle. Let the individuals be responsible for their own taxes. Let the free market reward the sites who do a good job of dealing a fair game. But you're missing the bigger picture. If regulation/taxation are necessary for the politicians to feel better about repealing the UIGEA, so be it. That would be much better than the status quo.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. TheEngineer
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    I wrote an article on this a couple of days ago. It's at http://poker.townhall.com :

    It’s Time to Insist on Placing Online Poker Within the Reach of U.S. Law

    Rich Muny
    March 23, 2009

    Online poker is available in every state in the Union, and millions of poker enthusiasts enjoy participating in these games from the comfort of their own homes. However, due to vagaries in federal law, these poker sites are all located offshore where they are not licensed, regulated, or taxed by any state or federal entity. It’s time to end this by placing this industry within the reach of U.S. law.

    U.S. licensing and regulation of the online poker industry are needed to mandate age and identity verification, to require providing of services and self-exclusion lists for those with excessive gaming habits, and to provide consumer protections. Poker sites comply voluntarily now, but licensing and regulation would give U.S. laws the teeth needed for enforcement. Licensing and regulation would also provide for collection of taxes and licensing fees from sites, as well as income taxes from winning American players. Most importantly, licensing and regulation would move a significant part of the industry onshore, bringing jobs and revenue with it.

    Online poker has been available worldwide for over a decade. Many nations – including most of those in the European Union – have insisted on licensing and regulation. The U.S.– perhaps wishing to build on the “success” of Prohibition – has instead chosen to try a prohibition that forces banks to stop some online gaming transactions. However, it is not at all clear which forms of non-sports online gaming are to be included. Chad Hills, a gaming research analyst for Focus on the Family Action, states the following about the current legal situation regarding online poker:

    The U.S. Department of Justice maintains that all forms of online gambling are illegal, based on the 1961 Federal Wire Act. Contention exists, however, about the intent of this law, as the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the Wire Act only applies to sports betting – not to other forms of online gambling (emphasis added). Forbes online claims the online gambling industry exploited U.S. laws because of their ambiguity - lack of clarity: "... hundreds of companies have been exploiting the fact that U.S. laws on online gambling are as hazy as your classic, smoke-filled casino."

    Focus on the Family also reports that, despite passage of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act in 2006, online poker and gaming continue to grow in popularity in the U.S.:

    The economic downturn is affecting casinos, but not online wagering. The Las Vegas Strip saw a 15 percent decline in gambling revenue in January (2009). And betting proceeds in Atlantic City reportedly were down 19 percent last month. But online gambling revenue is up — surpassing $20 billion in 2008.

    It is clear that current federal laws most likely will not be held to include peer-to-peer games of skill like poker. It is equally clear that Congress is unlikely to expand this any day soon, especially as that would threaten the many exemptions Congress placed in UIGEA for other forms of online gaming. Also, poker players have organized and are standing up for their rights. The Poker Players Alliance now has over one million members. They are winning cases in state courts. They are motivated, they are lobbying Congress, and – they vote.

    Even if prohibition were attempted, it would be guaranteed to fail. There are too many motivated poker players who would find ways to play. While playing, they would continue standing up for their rights while voting against anti-poker politicians. Regulation, on the other hand, would work. Players would naturally gravitate toward sites authorized to offer services in the U.S., as these sites would be perceived as being safer. Thus, market forces would drive compliance.

    The current situation is unacceptable. It’s time to stop pretending that online poker will one day be prohibited throughout America. It’s time to stop kowtowing to those who prefer an ineffectual, fanciful prohibition to facing reality. It’s time to stand up for America’s families and children by insisting on law and order. It’s time to step up. It’s time to license and regulate this industry now.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. good post, Engineer. Someone should edit the title of this primary post, though.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. TheEngineer
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    Originally posted by: eblade
    good post, Engineer. Someone should edit the title of this primary post, though.

    Done.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. TheEngineer
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    MMateo,

    IMO you're forgetting one thing. The U.S. government is very unlikely to allow the status quo to continue. Regulation gains us clear legality and U.S. based sites.

    Prior to poker players standing up for our rights, we lost votes in Congress by 317-93 (HR 4411, the bill that became UIGEA) and 90-10 (an earlier Senate vote). Congressmen acted like no one in America supported the right to play. It's likely that they heard from only a few Americans who did. Many poker players feared clear legalization and stayed quiet, hoping things would remain as they were then, IMO.

    I have bad news. Things cannot stay as they are today. If they could, sites wouldn't be funding and lobbying for clear legalization. There is absolutely no way our government will continue to permit offshore sites to offer services in America while barring U.S. based ones from doing the same. Something will give. If offshore sites continue to serve Americans and poker players remain quiet on purpose, IMO either an effective prohibition will be passed or U.S. based interests will be allowed access. The status quo is simply unstable.

    The reason we can access these sites today is not due to people staying quiet, hoping things will stay the same. Rather, the status quo exists because a bunch of people stood up for their rights, stopping the banners in their tracks.

    I recommend we keep telling Congress that we want our rights. Fighting back has let Congress know that many Americans want their freedom. It has also resulted in greatly improved media coverage.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. TheEngineer
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    Originally posted by: mmateo
    How will this so called "regulation" make a poker site better or safer or NOT RIGGED...

    Any bill would likely require independent audits of the RNG. Sites with any issues would lose their license and could be subject to criminal prosecution.

    Additionally, major casinos like Harrah's and MGM would not sully their brands with any cheating scandal at all.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. jeff sizemore
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    Engineer, to change the subject, there is a committee vote this week in the Texas House on legalizing poker in Texas, could you please update the readers and give out a call to action.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. TheEngineer
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    skeet9999 writes:
    Engineer, to change the subject, there is a committee vote this week in the Texas House on legalizing poker in Texas, could you please update the readers and give out a call to action.

    An action alert was sent to the Texas membership.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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