We have had much discussion about the legality and appropriate places to play the various "bar" leagues in Colorado. Most of that has been centered around playing in and around the Denver area. I've found a group and league for our members in the Colorado Springs/Pueblo area that has my personal endorsement. Go to this link http://www.aceragsuited.com and give them a look. Good folks and PPA members.
Gary Reed
Colorado Director
Poker Players Alliance Forums » State - CO
Free Bar Poker Leagues
(11 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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I am the managing member of The Free Poker Experience, LLC, and we are fighting to bring Bar Poker to New York State. Due to an archaic law that says that playing in a game for free or entertainment is gambling we have been forced to sue New York State and will be appearing in Supreme Court at 60 Center Street, NYC on April 1, 2009 at 11 AM for oral arguments.
As the Colorado Director of your league any thoughts or advise you can contribute would be greatly appreciated. Please visit our web-site (http://www.thefreepokerexperience.com) to see what we are doing including copies of all court papers filed.
Contact me at ben@thefreepokerexperience.com with any questions or assistance.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am the owner of a similar poker tour here on the Western Slope of Colorado. My web site is wspokertour.net, and I was shocked at the similarities in Ace rag suited and my company Western Slope Poker Tour. His website is much more impresive than mine! And gives the impressin of a well run game.
I recently became a member of the PPA due to the recent events taking place on the other side of the state. There are a few things on my mind im hoping someone can shed some light on.
My main issue to overcome is making my Venues more satisfied. In almost all situations the Venue will break even or loose especially with todays economy. My price is verry cheap for what i provide, much cheaper than most. So my question is would it be leagal to ask the players to leave a $5.00 voluntary donation to the Venue for hosting the poker game each time they came out to play. One of my customers tells me this is no different (actually better cause its voluntary) than hiring a band and charging a cover at the door. So im a little confused? In my situation this would solve many problem, it just seems like a fine line. Looking for Input!
Another is the whole poker issue of chance or skill seems to be leaning towards "skill" from what i am seeing and reading is this correct?
There is no doubt in my mind never has been. I see people come in that dont have a clue of what they are doing. and yes they might win the first time they play! Wahoo there hooked lol. But eventually they pay there dues and have to learn the game, and the other players, and all the other aspects of the game. There are about 5 - 10 players you will see in the leader board all the time, not because they play all the time but because they finish consistantly. This is not luck! Its because they know what they need to do to get to the end of the tournament.
Seems like maybe i should get some kind of legal advice on exactly what can be done and what cant.
Wade Patten
Posted 1 year ago # -
Sswadep, email me at CO@pokerplayersalliance.com and we can share some info with you.
Gary Reed
Colorado State Director
PPAPosted 1 year ago # -
Can someone please let me know about rewarding players in Free Bar League chips for food and or drink purchases? I was told it was illegal this is what the liquor board said...POKER IS NOT GAMBLING IT IS SKILL..
Please let me know if this is correct..
thanks,
PamelaThe Liquor/Tobacco Enforcement Division informed us that providing any additional chips to players for based upon any purchases would in fact constitute a "Buy-In" and therefore make the game illegal.
"A card tournament must be free to the participants and there can not be any direct or indirect costs to the players. You can not award additional chips for the purchases of items such as food, alcohol, or non-alcohol items. This constitutes charging and an indirect cost to the players. Once this happens, you are conducted a game that falls under the criminal statutes and the Liquor Code as gambling.Gambling is a felony under the liquor code and this activity would put the liquor license in grave danger of having an action taken against that license. Any administrative action taken by the Liquor Enforcement Division may result in a suspension or revocation of the liquor license.
Because you and other companies are conducting these tournaments but you are not the holder of a liquor license we would ask that you take great care to educate each licensee and ensure this type of activity does not take place.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Laws vary from state to state, but in most states McDonald's awards game pieces (chips) to players to win millions in cash and prizes in their Monopoly game. Subway has a Scrabble game. Soft drink companies used to have (maybe they still do) codes under bottle caps that allowed prizes to be won.
Other restaurant chains have similar promotions from time to time. Because it is well known that poker is in fact "evil" it is perfectly ok in the eyes of some agencies to go after poker promotions when in fact it would never be tolerated to go after a major fast food chain such as McDonald's.
As a matter of fact, there is significant case law asserting that fast food chains and soda companies are on solid legal ground when they do such "gamblingesque" activities.
So, in theory there is no reason why the same laws and court precedents cannot be applied to free bar poker. Why not be the test case that proves the government they are wrong? :)
Posted 6 months ago # -
FWIW, I have played in a couple free bar leagues in Idaho that give additional chips for food and drink purchases. They also allow late arrivals to play, but give bonus chips to those who arrived on time. This sometimes makes for bad poker, but is obviously good business since it encourages people to get there early and spend. The bars obviously like it. However I suspect that the liquor control board would take exception to this (at least the chips for purchases). This isn't the same legally as a McDonald's promotion for a number of reasons, the biggest one being that those are covered under sweepstakes laws and typically provide a way to get a free entry without making a purchase.
Posted 6 months ago # -
As BigAIK points out, there is no way to get chips, or play for free in Free Bar Poker. I had missed this point which distinguishes Free Poker from a Monopoly game at McDonald's.
Perhaps if bar owners who sponsor Free Poker could devise a way that people could play for free, without a purchase, then Free Poker could be more legal. Does anyone have any ideas on this?
I wonder if any court would look at a dominant use test and try to determine what is the primary purpose of the food purchase? Is it feasible that any court would consider whether the money was paid as the regular cost of a sandwich, or if the player was buying chips and could care less about the sandwich which he throws away?
Posted 6 months ago # -
To Wade Patten:
I don't know about Colorado, but here in Arizona, the way I understand the law, "No actual currency is to be exchanged between the players and the host or venue". Colorado MAY or MAY NOT allow it, but I'm pretty sure Arizona doesn'tPosted 6 months ago # -
You cannot under any circumstances award chips, or additional chips, for players who purchase drinks, food, or other services in Colorado. PERIOD.
The locations and/or poker tours that are doing this are risking the liquor license of the establishment.
Brian Masters
Denver Poker TourPosted 4 months ago #
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