Poker Players Alliance Forums » Ask Skallagrim

bar poker leagues-legalities??

(10 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by Carl Pipitone
  • Latest reply from Ron Gentile

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  1. Carl Pipitone
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    I am a legitimate business man operating a bar poker league in the State of Florida.

    Bar Poker Leagues provide "Free" poker with the chance to win large prizes in monthly or quarterly tournaments as well as smaller prizes at individual nightly events. Players play for Free but there is a $5 optional gratuity that is collected at the beginning of each tournament to compensate the dealer for his time and efforts.

    Bar poker is becoming more and more popular across the nation. Every state has different laws and every person and attorney has a different opinion on what is and what is not legal. (I personally live in the State of Florida.) I have also heard that the ATF has some issues with what I do? I have an attorney but he does not specialize in gaming and gambling law?

    Do you know anyone who is "an expert" on the laws that would apply to what I do?

    Do you know any state agency that might provide me the answers that I need?

    PS Do you have or know of any other legal poker hotline for questions like this???

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Skallagrim
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    I can only give general information here, as to really answer your questions requires a very local expert.

    Bar leagues, in general, are not affected by a state's gambling law because, if they are truly FREE (I note you put that word in quotation marks) they are not gambling under any state statute. "Gambling" always requires 3 things: Prize, chance (to one degree or another) and consideration. "Consideration" means a payment, or an obligation to pay, something of value for the chance to win the prize. If entry into the poker game is truly free, no hidden costs, it is not gambling.

    Now we get into the details. In the few worst states, merely making money by the selling of extra drinks has been said to meet the consideration requirement (like when a bar makes you buy a "drink card" to enter the game), in other states there must be some direct fee paid by the player, like a "dealer fee." In most states, so long as there is truly no fee or money taken from the players, the fact that the free game produces extra patrons for the bar (who is usually the one paying the league operator to run the game) does not mean a bar league game violates the gambling laws. But aside from that, each state has its own agency regulating bars and the rules of that agency may allow or not allow such games regardless of whether they are free or not. Local towns and sometimes counties also sometimes have laws governing when such games might be allowed and when they are not. THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN REALLY GIVE YOU A DEFINITIVE ANSWER IS A LAWYER FAMILIAR WITH YOUR STATE'S AND LOCALITY'S LIQUOR LAWS AND REGULATIONS. It takes some research, but is not the kind of task that would take a competent business attorney a long time to figure out.

    If you cant get your lawyer to find this out, the PPA might be able to give you the names of lawyers in your area more familiar with the subject. Send us an e-mail for that referral if you need it.

    For some basic information about the legality of bar leagues in your locale, I would suggest contacting whatever agency is in charge of licensing the bars in your area (usually called the "state liquor commission," but not always).

    I am not aware of any "hotlines" on this subject, but "bar leagues" are quite popular around the country and I am sure you can find other leagues to contact by searching the internet.

    Sorry this was not completely helpful, but while gambling laws have similar general patterns, what is allowed or not allowed to happen in bars is truly a state by state and local by local answer depending primarily on the liquor laws.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. Carl Pipitone
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    Thank you for your input. Please feel free to share my email with PPA attorneys that specialize on these topics. My email is pipitone15@myexcel.com

    Thanks
    Pipitone

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Danny Russell
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    Regaarding the legality of bar poker in Florida and any other state. The problem is not the legality of poker or the definition of gambling acording to an individual state laws. The issue is federal and associated employment taxes of the supposed "independent contractor" dealers. Check the definition of an independent contractor according to the IRS and find that if the dealers are not truely independent that is they own their equipment, control their time, behavior, dress working times etc... they are considered as employees and the company has to pay employement taxes. There has been several large national poker companies and large Florida companies taken to court by the IRS or disgruntled ex dealers and lost. If you run a poker tour company you will eventually get caught by the IRS or a disgruntled ex dealer and fined a very large amount of money.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  5. Michael Lettie
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    Speaking only from the State of Arizona, bar poker is completely legal here. Of course, that is defining 'bar poker' as free to the player. Not only is it legal, but is increasingly popular. This is not only to players, but the proprietors of the venues as well

    Posted 8 months ago #
  6. Skallagrim
    State Director & Moderator
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    Free bar poker leagues are indeed popular.

    But the vicious "gambling is evil" crowd will tell you bar poker leagues are a "gateway drug" desogned "to hook the vulnerable to the harder stuff." That this happens to folks about as often as they get hit by lightening does in no way slow down the true believer's zeal.

    Hence the legality of bar poker leagues is truly a case by case basis depending on the state law, the local law, the liquor laws, liquor licensing board regulations, and attitudes of local prosecutors.

    Those of you without local bar poker leagues need to ask why and what you can do to change it. While they will never replace real for money play, they are a lot of fun, and they're cheaper than going to the movies!

    Skallagrim

    Posted 8 months ago #
  7. Hi Patrick, I'm Gregg. I have two questions for you when you get around to it.

    I don't live far from you, I'm in Rochester. I stumbled across one of these free leagues in Exeter. While I normally wouldn't touch a freeroll game, the recession nailed me this summer when I lost my job. (Luckily, I got an offer from the shipyard this week, thank God!) Anyway, it turns out that a not having the chance to scoop a payout at the end is the only bad thing about it. The field isn't overly skilled, but it's most definitely not a donkey corral. And everyone is very friendly, making for a great atmosphere. So I was thinking to bring it closer to me, I'd like to help out the TD's and prospective franchisees and hit up a couple establishments in Dover and Rochester to see if they'd be interested in hosting.

    So... Just to be clear, in NH there's zero issues with the legality of free pub leagues, correct? And I mean 100% free - if I don't feel like having a beer then I won't spend a dime.

    Also, unrelated to pub leagues... My home league, the Seacoast Poker Tour has a website. And yes, we play for money. I know you'll tell me that it's never a good thing to bring attention to a home game - but is there any significant legal danger that could come from our home league being on the internet?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  8. EDIT: And would you happen to know about how Maine's laws relate to free pub poker or would Michael Phelps be a better person to ask?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  9. Chris Belflower
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    Good morning all, I own a small bar league here in Minnesota (Straight Flush Poker Tour - http://www.sfpokertour.com). It is legal as long as (you all know) it is free. However, there are a few issues that we all must keep in mind. First, business, including mine, are there to make money. If a business is not making money, things need to be changed in order to accomplish that... Thereare three entities that make up our bar league circle... The bar, the league and the players. this is an interesting combination. The bars want to get people in there, so they hire me to run a poker tournament. I, for a monthly fee, bring players into the establishment to play for prizes (which I pay for from the monthly fees). So in order for players to be interested to visit, I have to entice them with good prizes. However, if they are not spending money, then the bar is wasting money each month by paying me to host these tournaments. Bar makes no money, they kick out the poker league, and I am out of a location. No poker there, and the players now have lost out as well. So there has to be a fine balance, in short, to keep all parties happy. But on the players' standpoint, how free is free? It is important, if not imperative that the players patronize the bars/restaurants where they play regardless which State. Otherwise, the establishment will move on and no one will have poker.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  10. I run a league in Virginia and we have some of the same problems between counties! We have a lawyer that works with different county lawyers to get documents that states its ok for us to play in this county. So when the ABC agents come into the bars and restaurants were we play the owners can hand the agent the letter from the county attorney office and not get their liquor license taken away from them.
    We do not have a deal at every table so we don’t have the problem of having to pay the deals for the night but, we do that a host that runs the game for us we pay. All games are free for the member to play in and the bar or restaurant put up the cash prize. The league holds a regional event twice a year and we pay out over $1500.00 of each game.
    I think you make have it a little easier than we do. Don’t get me wrong…. It a real pain in the @#$%^ for us and I’m sure for you but, I think the game is worth it. I know our members and our customer have fun at all the games and we are all making a little money on it. (NOT MUCH, just a little) Good luck!

    Posted 7 months ago #

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