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Poker Players Alliance Forums » Ask Skallagrim

1. white_rabbit
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   This question regards membership sites like PurePlay. Both PurePlay and SpadeClub say Ohio residents are not eligible to use their sites (at least the membership portion--Pureplay does have a free "basic" level that an Ohio resident could use) but Club WPT says they are legal in Ohio. All three claim to be taking advantage of the "sweepstakes" loophole, so I'm unclear how they came to different conclusions as to their status in Ohio.

   Also, how is Poker School Online legal in all states? Is it simply that the law sees a difference between sending someone $500 cash versus buying them in to a $500 tournament?

   Thanks in advance.

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. Skallagrim
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   I honestly don't know the answer to your question, and it will take some time to find an answer.

   The reason for this is that these sites are not covered by "gambling" laws. I have made it a point to keep a good and generally up to date list of the various state gambling laws, and this forum is here to help keep all PPA members informed as to how those laws affect their ability to play poker.

   With these sites, you are not really playing poker as we traditionally know it. Although I also do not know the details on all these sites, SpadeClub and ClubWPT both work from the premise that what they are offering is a "sweepstakes" style competition, not a card game (even though you get to play cards it is not run like Pokerstars or Las Vegas Casinos). If you look at the fine print at these sites, you will find that NO money is ever directly wagered on a game. In fact, they really dont have "cash' games at all (except ones that only use "play" money), just plenty of tournaments where "prizes" can be won. All also allow anyone to play in those tournaments for free (again in the fine print: you must send a handwritten 3X5 card etc...). Of course, if you buy their membership you are relieved of the burden of having to send the cards, but you dont HAVE to buy the membership to play.

   Thus this business model is not "gambling" as their is no "consideration" REQUIRED to play the tournament.

   Some states, however, have specific statutes covering these "sweepstakes" style operations, and apparently Ohio is one of those. It either bans them directly or (more likely given the difference between the sites) requires certain conditions or licenses that possibly ClubWPT has met but SpadeClub has not. Of course, the difference could also be a difference of legal opinion.

   It would take me some time to get access to Ohio sweepstakes law. It might be quicker if you do this yourself at the OHIO state website. If you wont or cant, let me know and I will check it out when I have some spare time.

   Thanks for the question,

   Skallagrim

   PS, I am not familiar with Poker School Online at all; if their operation is different from the other two I mentioned, please post the details and I will respond as best I can.

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. white_rabbit
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   Thanks for your quick reply. I will see if I can track down some more detail on Ohio law to explain the differences. Poker School Online (PSO) is a membership site like PurePlay except that what you win is a buy-in to a brick and mortar tournament. They also have a sister site (Fleetstreet) that works like PurePlay but lists Ohio as an eligible state. So, what you're left with is four seemingly similar sites (PurePlay, SpadeClub, Club WPT and Fleetstreet), two of which say they are legal in Ohio and two which say they aren't. Then you have PSO, which claims to be legal in all states.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. white_rabbit
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   I've done a little more research and found an OAG opinion cite that leads me to believe that if one has to pay to be eligible to win prizes then it is not considered an exempt sweepstakes under Ohio law:

   "A sweepstakes conducted by a military credit union located on civilian property, whereby persons who obtain loans from the credit union receive chances to win prizes, is not a scheme of chance within the meaning of RC 2915.01(C), in the absence of evidence indicating that participants in the sweepstakes give valuable consideration and obtain loans with the intent of receiving chances to win prizes. OAG 85-013."

   And here's a relevant quote from a newspaper article dealing with another "scheme" that seems to support my conclusion above:

   "For now, the companies appear to be providing a legal service that isn't gambling, Ector County Attorney Cathy Linch said. Because a person is allowed to enter the sweepstakes for free and the person with a free entry has an equal chance of winning as someone who donates, then it's not gambling because the participant doesn't have to pay to be considered for the prize."

   BTW, I thought this quote from an Ohio state court opinion interesting as well:

   "The fact that an element of skill may be involved in a game does not override the fact that elements of chance exist and, therefore, the game can be classified as a game of chance. In Westerhaus Co. v. Cincinnati (1956), 165 Ohio St 327, 59 O.O. 428, 135 N.E.2d 318, we specifically held in paragraph twelve of the syllabus that certain pinball machines were gambling devices per se “notwithstanding that the operation of such machine[s] to attain such sufficient score is predominantly dependent on the skill of the operator.” Therefore, to settle this issue once and for all, we specifically hold that the General Assembly appropriately determined poker to be a game of chance."

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. Skallagrim
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   Yeah, Ohio is a VERY bad state when it comes to defining poker. There is no "skill v. chance" argument in this state as Poker is specifically classified as a game of chance in the statute.

   Nice sleuthing on the sweepstakes issue so far white_rabbit. Here is my guess as to the other issues: PokerSchoolOnline provides some kind of training, yes? If so my guess is they claim the money paid is for the training, and the tournament for a live tournament entry is a "gift" on top of the training. This is complex legally, and analysis will have to wait for another day.

   As to the other sites, look to see if Ohio is one of the states that requires "registration" for sweepstakes. If so, the answer may be some sites registered and some sites didnt.

   Thanks again,

   Skallagrim

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. white_rabbit
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   That's a great point about PSO. It would be interesting to see how far one could stretch that argument because in theory one could say the fee to join PurePlay is to become a member of the poker "community" there and the tournaments are just an added benefit. The problem is some of the language I've come across suggests there has to be a way for someone to participate in the sweepstakes without paying anything (though the military credit union example I cite above suggests otherwise). For example, the classic case is the McDonald's sweepstakes and there you can actually get game pieces without purchasing anything (though I doubt few actually do that).

   As for a licensing "out" under the sweepstakes provision--I haven't seen one. There are explicit statutory exemptions for non-profits/charities and specific games, but I haven't seen any general licensing provision. Of course, that doesn't mean there isn't one.

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. white_rabbit
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   The following is from Bluff magazine's subscription site (they list Ohio as an eligible state):

   "ClubBluff is not a gambling site because you join the "club" to get benefits like discounts on goods and services and the opportunity to play in tournaments for prizes. The tournaments are part of the club promotion. ClubBluff operates within the "sweepstakes" rules where they are legal and excludes people from joining who live in those states and countries where they are not."

   Assuming there is no licensing "out" that these clubs are availing themselves of, I suppose they may be relying on the AG opinion cited above to the effect that the burden would be on the government to show people joined to win prizes as opposed to simply getting access to discounts, etc. Of course, as I read the law, we as individual citizens need to come to our own conclusions on this because it is a violation of the code to participate in a "scheme of chance" and I don't think we'd get to claim reliance on the website's statement of legality as a defense.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. Ady Miles
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   PSO is a subscription website; Fleet Street Games ceased operation on 1st November 2008; Poker School Online does not send it's members any money. However, players can win Sponsorship Points that can be used to pay for a Buy-In of at least $500 to any Live Poker Event where they are accepted Worldwide. PSO wire this direct to the Casino, so the players themselves receives no money whatsoever

   Ady Miles,
   ACEKINGPRO @ PSO

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. Steve Heslop
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   Maybe you guys can help me. I have been playing online for a while now, but it has been getting tougher to play the real money sites because of the banking laws. Now there are membership sites where you pay a subscription to play for cash & prizes. These "legal" sites like ClubWPT, Spade Club, and Pure Play seemed to fill the niche for those of us who want to play without the hassle of overseas bank accounts or risk of legal problems. FleetStreetGames (FSG) is one of these sites. They are affiliated with Poker School Online (PSO) and originally advertised as an added benefit to PSO membership, where we could play tournaments for prizes and real cash. On October 26, 2008, I came in 2nd in their monthly 50k tourney for a win of $7500. I never received my winnings. Since that time, FSG shut down and PSO is still operating and offering to convert FSG winnings to extensions or upgrades to memberships in PSO. I prefer my winnings, but it has been nearly 3 months now with no response from anyone at eaither PSO or FSG to help me. As an avid online poker fan, I hate to see our poker community recieve bad press, but this situation is demanding a resolution that if not corrected will damage the reputation of all online play, including the subscription sites. I am not the only one awaiting payment from PSO/FSG. Could you please help repair poker's rep and help those members of PSO/FSG? PSO is based in Las Vegas, so it seems as if they would like to cooperate, but since it is online, where do I turn?

   Posted 2 years ago #

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