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Poker Players Alliance Forums » Ask Skallagrim

1. ray manning
   Member
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   I am not sure about how the subscription sites like spadeclub, clubwpt, and pureplay are legal. Is it legal in Hawaii? "Social Gambling" where a house takes a fee is prohibited there. See below for the details. Thanks.

   712-1231 Social gambling; definition and specific conditions, affirmative defense. (a) Definition.

   "Social gambling" means gambling in which all of the following conditions are present:

   (1) Players compete on equal terms with each other; and

   (2) No player receives, or becomes entitled to receive, anything of value or any profit, directly or indirectly, other than the player's personal gambling winnings; and

   (3) No other person, corporation, unincorporated association, or entity receives or becomes entitled to receive, anything of value or any profit, directly or indirectly, from any source, including but not limited to permitting the use of premises, supplying refreshments, food, drinks, service, lodging or entertainment; and

   (4) It is not conducted or played in or at a hotel, motel, bar, nightclub, cocktail lounge, restaurant, massage parlor, billiard parlor, or any business establishment of any kind, public parks, public buildings, public beaches, school grounds, churches or any other public area; and

   (5) None of the players is below the age of majority; and

   (6) The gambling activity is not bookmaking.

   (b) Affirmative defense:

   (1) In any prosecution for an offense described in [section] 712-1223, 712-1224, 712-1225 or 712-1226, a defendant may assert the affirmative defense that the gambling activity in question was a social gambling game as defined in [section] 712-1231(a).

   (2) If the defendant asserts the affirmative defense, the defendant shall have the burden of going forward with evidence to prove the facts constituting such defense unless such facts are supplied by the testimony of the prosecuting witness or circumstance in such testimony, and of proving such facts by a preponderance of evidence.

   (c) In any prosecution for an offense described in this part the fact that the gambling activity involved was other than a social gambling game shall not be an element of the offense to be proved by the prosecution in making out its prima facie case. [

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Skallagrim
   State Director & Moderator
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   Hi res1, thanks for the question.

   Your citation of Hawaiian law is correct, though I think you mistyped the general rule: "social gambling" is quite legal in Hawaii, as long as all those conditions are met.

   All other gambling is illegal in Hawaii, though there is still the question of whether Poker is "gambling" (its a "skill v. chance' argument state), and the lesser question of whether the law would be held to apply to the internet.

   Your specific question about subscription sites is the first I have had. The whole point of these subscription sites is their belief that their economic model is not legally gambling. They claim this because you pay a monthly fee for the privilege of accessing the site and its "amusements" - your money is never "at risk," it is spent the moment you deposit it. That you can win prizes participating in the games is just icing on the cake under this legal theory.

   The legal theory is pretty good in my opinion. Generally gambling requires 3 things: prize, consideration, and chance. The three things must work together. Even if we conceded the chance and prize elements, consideration is the key. There is no additional cost to enter the games at these subscription sites, so there is no consideration for the specific game. So you are playing, but not gambling.

   I have to add, however, that although these subscription sites would not fit under Hawaii's gambling law, some states do have other laws that prohibit these types of enterprises. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the entire list of Hawaii statutes and cant say for certain that some other law might not apply.

   These subscription sites are generally US based, however and thus will have researched which states allow their operation and which states do not. If the subscription site you are thinking about joining says you cant join, its probably because of some law other than the gambling statute. Check the subscription sites "terms and conditions" to find out for certain.

   Skallagrim

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. ray manning
   Member
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   Thank you for the quick reply, Skallagrim. Under the terms and conditions of the subscription sites, Hawaii is not one of the restricted states. I'll perform some additional research on the state laws before signing up.

   Thanks again.

   res1

   Posted 1 year ago #

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